Churchill versions messed up...

[LT albrecht]

The versions for the Churchill heavy tank (the only british one) Are all wrong; for example the churchill crocodile was a variant with as 75mm gun and FLAMETHROWER in the hull position, only this version was called a churchill crocodile, the others being:

Churchill I (303):
Equipped with a 2 pounder gun in the turret (150 rounds), and a coaxial Besa machine gun. There was a 3 inch howitzer in the hull (58 rounds). It was a tank that was noted for poor mechanical reliability. It was the main tank issued to the Canadian forces at Dieppe.

Churchill II (1,127):
Replaced the hull howitzer for another machine gun to reduce cost and complexity. Sometimes referred to as Churchill Ia.

Churchill IICS (Close Support):
Placed the gun in the hull and the howitzer in the turret, available in very limited numbers. Sometimes called Churchill II.

Churchill III (675):
The III was the first major armament overhaul of the series, eliminating the hull howitzer and equipping the tank with a more powerful 6 pounder gun (84 rounds). Unlike early versions, it had a welded turret.

Churchill IV (1,622):
The IV was the most numerous Churchill produced, and was virtually identical to the III, the largest change being a return to the less costly cast turret.

Churchill V (241):
A Churchill III / IV which was equipped with a close support 95 mm howitzer in place of the main gun (47 rounds).

Churchill VI (200):
Along with several minor improvements, it was produced as standard with the 75mm Mk V gun. Few were built due to the near release of the VII and current upgunning of the III / IV.


Tank, Infantry, Mk IV, Churchill VII (A22F)Churchill VII (A22F) (1,600 with XIII):
The second major redesign from previous models, the VII used the 75 mm gun, was wider and had much more armor. It is sometimes called the Heavy Churchill. This version of the Churchill first saw service in the Battle of Normandy, and was redesignated A42 in 1945.

Churchill VIII:
A Churchill VII which replaced the main gun with a 95 mm howitzer (47 rounds).

Churchill IX:
Churchill III / IV upgraded with turret of the VII. Extra armour added along with gearbox and suspension modifications. If the old 6 pounder (2.7 kg) had been retained, it would have the additional designation of LT ("Light Turret").

Churchill X:
The same improvements as for the IX applied to a Mk VI.

Churchill XI:
Churchill V with extra armour and Mk VIII turret.

Churchill Oke (3):
A Churchill II with a flamethrower. The Oke flamethrowing tank was named after its designer, Major J.M. Oke. The design was basically for a Churchill tank fitted with the Ronson flamethrowing equipment. A tank containing the flame fuel was fitted at the rear, with a pipe from it leading to the front retaining the machine gun in the hull. There were three present at Dieppe which were quickly hit, and abandoned.

Churchill NA75 (120):
Churchill III / IV with upgraded weaponry using the turret and mantlet from a destroyed or scrapped Sherman (known as NA 75 from North Africa where the conversions took place), or having their current gun rebored to 75 mm ( III* / IV (75mm) ) (84 rounds). More IV's were modified than III's, and their performance is virtually identical to the VI.


Churchill AVRE: a Churchill III or IV equipped with the Petard, a 290 mm Spigot mortar, throwing the 40 pound (18 kg) "Flying dustbin" with its 28 pound high explosive warhead. A weapon designed for the quick levelling of fortifications. It was designed after the Canadian failures at Dieppe and could also be equipped with numerous other attachments, such as mine flails, fascine rollers, explosive placers etc. Post WW2 the Churchill AVRE was re-armed with a breech loaded low velocity 165 mm demolition gun which was less dangerous for the loader as he previously had to stick his head and torso out of the Spigot Mortar armed AVRE to load the Mortar.

Churchill ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle):
Mk I - A turretless Mk I with a jib. Mk II - A Churchill with a fixed turret/superstructure with a dummy gun. It was equipped for recovering other tanks from the battlefield. Mounted a front jib with a 7.5 ton capacity, a rear jib rated for 15 ton and winch that could pull 25 ton. Crew was 3 with enough room for the crew of the tank being recovered. Armament was single Besa machine gun.


Churchill Crocodile (800):
One of the more notable Churchills, it was a Churchill VII which replaced the hull machine gun with a flamethrower. The fuel was in an armoured wheeled trailer towed behind. It could fire several 1 second bursts over 150 yards. The Crocodile was one of 'Hobart's Funnies'. A working example can still be seen at the Cobbaton Combat Collection in North Devon.



This is an important vehicle both historically and for balance as it is the only British heavy tank (unless you add a centurion... heh heh) Please correct this fault before releasing RWM 6.7 final; and like i said; only the early versions had 2pdrs in the hull; after that they all had BESA 7.92mm machine guns!

[Matttheoz]

Yup. I second this motion. The Churchills need attention. At the moment every Churchill variant except the Petard is wrong:

"Churchill Mk IV 6pdr + Flame"
-->should be Churchill Mk VII Crocodile 75mm + Flame

"Churchill Mk IV 75mm + 2pdr"
-->should be Churchill Mk IV 6pdr (57mm) + Besa MG

"Churchill mineclearer"
-->did NOT exist until the 1950s (the british also used the Sherman Flailtank)

"Lend lease Churchill Mk IV Croc 75mm + 2 pdr"
-->should be Lend Lease Churchill Mk IV 6pdr (57mm) + Besa MG (as above)

And while on the topic of Lend Lease, the lend lease Sherman is just a normal sherman. It even still has the white star. This unit might aswell be scrapped completely to save unit slots, since mappers can just put a russian crew in a normal sherman...alternatively it needs atleast a red star

And on the topic of Shermans...aren't there a few too many? I mean, isn't 9 versions a bit...übertrieben?

Cheers,
Matt

[-Barbarossa-]

Thx for these information. If I find time I will have a look at it and will change it. Ok I think, I will keep the Churchill Mine-Clearer but the rest sounds good to me.

[LT albrecht]

They need to be changed, I'm glad you are changing them Barbarossa but matheoz you forgot about the 75mm Gun versions that saw service from normandy until the end of the war. I have respect for the Churchill, the armour was thicker than the tiger's in places! It was the last of the linear descendants of the cumbersome MKI tanks from the first world war, heavily armoured, slow, with a good trench crossing ability and in the 57mm Gun version quite a good tank killer. A venerable but ageing design; even when it left the drawing board, not to be underestimated though as many a German PZIII/IV tank crew must have found out when they first encountered the MK IV! The Churchill was superceeded by the Centurion tank which would go on to serve into the 1990s, a modern tank and theory to replace an old and in some ways outdated one...

Please give this tank a much needed overhaul! But be careful though, there's a thin line between balancing and being biased...

Thanks for reading my insane and long winded message, LOL

[Matttheoz]

Thx for these information. If I find time I will have a look at it and will change it. Ok I think, I will keep the Churchill Mine-Clearer but the rest sounds good to me.

Cool. Thanks alot.

@Albrecht
I was just addressing the variants that are already in the game (crocodile and Mk IV). If a new Mk VII was to be introduced I wouldn't be against it

Cheers,
Matt

[LT albrecht]

Thats cool, I reckon we need a few more tanks, the germans get 6 (or more I can't remember) PZIVs but we only get 3-4 churchills... it is unfair really as the churchill had MANY variants; I know war isn't fair but war games haven't got that excuse (although if everything was perfectly balanced then the game would be really boring).

Regards
Josh

[-Barbarossa-]

You can see the avaiable Churchill-Models/Skins in RWM.
So can u plz make a list which Churchill variants u want to see in RWM?
This would help me alot.

[LT albrecht]

Ok, I will; here it is:
1) Churchill MKIV (6pdr -57mm- and Besa MG)
2) Churchill MKVII (75mm + Besa MG)
3) Churchill Crocodile (75mm + flamethrower)
4) Churchill AVRE (290mm Petard demolition mortar + Besa MG)
5) possibly Churchill I (2pdr + ...inch hull howitzer) - used at dieppe and in africa early on in the desert war.

[tom]

hi.

cougar6 made a nice Churchill AVRE for PWM. Maybe you can use his model....

Yours

tom

[For Real WW2 feeling]

i dont the time for to search information, but for me, new or realistic modifications depend also
on their real dates of use in WW2 and their sufficient number of production quantity

dont sure of this informations (Wikipedia), i dont to tie in other sites.
If good in dates of WW2 of use, in bold those than i think more pertinent

Churchill I (303)
Churchill II (1127)
Churchill IICS (Close Support) (production ?)
Churchill III (675)
Churchill IV (1622)
Churchill V (241)
Churchill VI (200)
Tank, Infantry, Mk IV, Churchill VII (A22F)Churchill VII (A22F) (1600 with XIII)
Churchill VIII
A Churchill VII which replaced the main gun with a 95 mm howitzer (47 rounds). (production ?)
Churchill Crocodile (800)
and AVRE PETARD of course

moreover it would be wise to benefit from this subject to remove and replace
the prototyp “black Princeâ€

[Lamafarmer]

This might be off topic, but while we're at it, it would be nice to have a Valentine with either a 2pdr or 6pdr, so you can use those in maps which take place during the earlier years. I'd go for the 6pdr though.

[Suka]

It seems quite many 95 mm howizer version was also made and here
are many useful stats about churchill.

[LT albrecht]

Yeah, a 95mm howitzer + BESA Mg version; a british equivalent of the KV2 but without the trouble turning the turret on a slope...

Apart from that; implement the changes we have already discussed:
Churchill 2pdr + 3.74inch hull howitzer
Churchill 6pdr + Besa
Churchill 75mm + Besa
Churchill 95mm + Besa
Churchill AVRE

And I agree with lamafarmer apout the valentine; the 75mm versions were command vehicles, the 6pdr ones were for combat and the 2pdr ones were target practice for new german 88mm gun crews!

[Lamafarmer]

Yand the 2pdr ones were target practice for new german 88mm gun crews!

hehehe, just like the matilda, eh? ;D

[LT albrecht]

yep... except with a matilda there was a little more sheet steel in between survival and:

Early British tanks sucked; then we invented the comet line of cruiser (medium) tanks and that changed a little; after the war our tanks were great and some are still used; even today!
LOL;
1st lesson of british WW2 armored warfare, avoid 88s and tigers where possible!
2nd lesson: stick a 17pdr on a tank to reduce the margin you are outgunned by
3rd lesson: sod this, build centurions and squash the LOT...