RWG-team presents...

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

The Pics look very good.
You and your Team are doing a very good job. But I still have some points that I must tell you because some of that things are still making the gameplay loose some fun.
1. When I am not wrong I did not see any infantry that can use magnetic Antitankmines or molotov cocktails. But these soldiers are very impotant for trench and foxholedefence against tanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDyvlgabaAk
So deeper like in the film should be more important to hold fighting lines. But see the close Combat explosives against tanks.
So like that (Film in three parts):
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... 0.9.5l16l0
2. I do not know because I can not read the editor. But do you have smoke mortars in the Mod? Specially very important when you want to open a minefield with pioneers.
3. The reconaisance abilities of Officers are cut because some seconds they see far some seconds later short. I do not think that this is good for the gameplay because the changes are too radical. But for a good reconaisance you need to look far constantly. So I would put it back into original kind.
4. Did you think about to bring an english version of the RWG Mod because the menue of the game only shows me many ?????????, the same is shown in the editor. So with an english version it is possible vor many mappers to make own missions but with kyrillic letters you only see ?????????. Maybe Modders from the RWM Mod or Liberation Mod can help you. Just ask around.
5. I was talking about the trenches. I made a small test with that trenches that you put into the buildings. I atacked the defence line and sadly the trenches are not very good protection for infanterists. But please make them more resistable even like foxholes and bunkers (Beton) in Liberation Mod or even a bit more. When you shot at a stone house it is more resistable like a Wooden House. So please make trenches and stone buildings stronger and more difficult to destroy (with tank fire). Normally trenches are nearly impossible to destroy with tank grenades.
6. All in all give the infantry a bit more importants role so a bit more resistable. You can look at the RWM 8.0 that you see what I mean. Even the Shrapnel effect from Artillery is together with the too high hit accuracy not so realistic ....... specially for Infantry laying on the ground. So laying infantry should be a little bit better protected against artillery fire. Bombs are stronger and so their ability of destroying. So when infantry is laying flat on the ground there should survive more soldiers like now. Only very heavy Artillery like Shipartillery can be like it is now.
7. PLEASE make Missions always Bilingual like I always do it myself. The russian language do not understand many people. English is the best vote for international understanding.
8. Please give reconaisance APC`s a higher view ability. Because they are not armed so good. To give them more using ability because without any advantage they are simply canon fodder. APC`s with turrets should be able to let commanders look out for higher view.
9. generals should have about 8 centimeters higher view. They can only look so much like normal tanks to the front side.
10. When a tank is destroyed there are always surviving tank crews. But normally sometimes all survive, sometimes only one or two or three and but also sometimes all get killed.
11. I found a sound bug at the cavallery (infanterist with horse). When you let a horse walk. Two short times you hear the tripping sound of the horse and then there is no more sound, just silence.
12. When a plane crashes down into WATER it crashes and explodes like on normal hard ground. It should better push up a water fontaine like it is when artillery shells falling into the water. Maybe you make it a bit bigger with 3 or 4 fontaines.
13. The sound of a shot down plane sounds too much like a stuka bomber. Maybe use a other sound.


So these are my last proposals for now

P.s. Do not think that I do not respect your work. But beside new units the GAMEPLAY is very very important. A good gameplay setting makes out of a diamond a brilliant with high polish. So when you make it possible to hold defence lines even with mines, infantry in trenches with Panzerfausts, and some dig in Antitank guns against hard tank attacks that would be cool. I simply want that a good defense position is able to stop even enemies which are attacking in higher numbers than the defender. This would give the mod a more desperate and extreme Note and not that feeling of "let the troops rush through the map" and game over. STRATEGY!!!

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

Ah shit, still have point.
What about Unit experience? When I have units that get damaged or wounded. They get no experience points. How do you want to rule this. Because with every battle units should get experience points or not? Would make more fun. So units that get many points means nothing more that they are battle hardened!! And they shot better etc....

[combo]

Hi, Boli!

The Pics look very good.

Thx

1. When I am not wrong I did not see any infantry that can use magnetic Antitankmines or molotov cocktails. But these soldiers are very impotant for trench and foxholedefence against tanks.

Hand infantry anti-tank weapon is not as effective as you think All of these movies - the usual propaganda to raise morale Losses from AT infantry weapon negligible. And the average in the second world war not exceed one-two-free percent (except for Panzerfaust). The soldier must have incredible courage and good fortune to crawl towards the tank and deal with them.
All the tanks after the war in Spain and the Winter War were invulnerable to Molotov cocktails. These cocktails have only moral force and may damage the tank only through the open hatches or holes in the hull.

2. I do not know because I can not read the editor. But do you have smoke mortars in the Mod? Specially very important when you want to open a minefield with pioneers.

Yep. They in common mortars

3. The reconaisance abilities of Officers are cut because some seconds they see far some seconds later short. I do not think that this is good for the gameplay because the changes are too radical.

This change radically, but correct. Looking through binoculars - this cheat against AI and in multi-games. We have decided to refuse this - because it's more realistic. Case in the habit

4. Did you think about to bring an english version of the RWG Mod because the menue of the game only shows me many ?????????,

Of course our mod release will be in English:) English-speaking part of the players - are also important for us:)

5. I was talking about the trenches.

That you downloaded from another topic - it is a fake. Official developers of RWG - is RWG-team (from http://sudden-strike.ru/forum/index.php). I am a representative of the team. The fact that you have downloaded - impudent forgery, which uses our brand. Wait for our release I notices you about it in this or a new topic.

6. All in all give the infantry a bit more importants role so a bit more resistable.

Unfortunately - in reality the infantry out of cover very easy target. But we'll see what else we can improve in this direction.

7. PLEASE make Missions always Bilingual like I always do it myself.

Yes, of course. In the English release all missions will be in English:)

8. Please give reconaisance APC`s a higher view ability.

Let's see what we can do:)

9. generals should have about 8 centimeters higher view. They can only look so much like normal tanks to the front side.

Manipulation of the binoculars - it's cheat

10. When a tank is destroyed there are always surviving tank crews. But normally sometimes all survive, sometimes only one or two or three and but also sometimes all get killed.

I did not understand the question. The number of survivors - is a random.

11. I found a sound bug at the cavallery (infanterist with horse).

Wait for the release of official team:)

12. When a plane crashes down into WATER it crashes and explodes like on normal hard ground.

Let's see what we can do:)

13. The sound of a shot down plane sounds too much like a stuka bomber. Maybe use a other sound.

Let's see what we can do:)

What about Unit experience? When I have units that get damaged or wounded. They get no experience points. How do you want to rule this.

Gain experience from damage was in our mod. But long ago we refuse it. Because it is a big cheat. VERY big cheat.

But beside new units the GAMEPLAY is very very important. A good gameplay setting makes out of a diamond a brilliant with high polish. So when you make it possible to hold defence lines even with mines, infantry in trenches with Panzerfausts, and some dig in Antitank guns against hard tank attacks that would be cool.

The gameplay and realism is very difficult to combine. But we are trying

[Ente]

Hello,

"Gain experience from damage was in our mod. But long ago we refuse it. Because it is a big cheat. VERY big cheat."

Really? I can't comprehend this.
Unit experience is a great feature. Without it I get bored.

Gruß Ente

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

again, very good work.
The official Side that you showed me. I know it. I was on it in the past. I know the RWG Version 1.9. Will it be possible to play 1.9 Maps in the 2.0 Version in the future?

You say that dynamite-bundels and other anti-tank explosives were not important for the tank defense especially against russian tanks. I do not think so because the german wehrmacht had a big problem to stop such tanks like T-34s and KV-1 and KV-2s between 1941 until End of 1942. So in that time they had no panzerfausts and so no other alternative to any kinds of explosives and the risk to crowl beside or behind a tank to kill the crew members inside by fire or dynamite. And beside, I would not make it automaticly happen that a dynamite load would always destroy a tank but often let it happen that the tanks chains get damaged.
Only the 88mm or Stukabombers saved the infantery in that time from getting ripped.

For the experience. Do not forget that Soldiers get decorated when wounded. Or getting a higher rank. So I think it is not wrong to give units experience. You could only make one difference to getting wounded. The time how long the units are standing in the fields. So maybe every 1 hour in the mission 60 points more experience. Only an example.

The question of me that you did not understand. In the RWG normally after a tank got destroyed you always have surviving crew members. I would change that that also no crew member is surviving a total hit. It seems to me that there are always survivors.

Hm, you do not want to upgrade the general unit. The problem is. The general is a week infantry unit without any important weapon. So giving it more importants would be for example more reconaisance abilities by the binoculars.
I think every unit except civilist and animals should have any advantage to other units. That is making every unit to something special. I know a general normally would not see far more than any other human in real but what else in strategic advantage could be given to this unit? Because in the game the player is the main general and strategist. Even to give the generals a continuing ability of reconaisance through the binocular would be one of that plus points for this unit.

Can you please give me later when 2.0 is ready a DIRECT link to the Download because I can not read any russian word.

[combo]

Hello

Hello!

Really? I can't comprehend this.
Unit experience is a great feature. Without it I get bored.

I'll try to explain:) Earlier in the multi-battles, some dishonest players did so - the crews landed their tanks, and then fired on them with machine guns, and then treated. And so a few times around the circle. In the end, after 5-10 minutes of this player was 10-20 tankers with 1000 experience. What is it? This is really fair? This is a cheat. Therefore we have disabled this feature:) Another thing - you can bet on a map units already with the experience

Hi Combo

Hi, Boli!

again, very good work.

Thx

The official Side that you showed me. I know it. I was on it in the past.

It's very good Glad to see you at our site

I know the RWG Version 1.9. Will it be possible to play 1.9 Maps in the 2.0 Version in the future?

We will try to convert as many maps as possible. And of course a lot of new maps

You say that dynamite-bundels and other anti-tank explosives were not important for the tank defense especially against russian tanks. I do not think so because the german wehrmacht had a big problem to stop such tanks like T-34s and KV-1 and KV-2s between 1941 until End of 1942.

Invulnerability T-34 and KV - is a myth. If they were so - Soviet troops would be in Berlin in the autumn of 1941, rather than in May 1945. T-34 and KV may be destroyed from a 37-mm and 50 mm guns (especially the 50-mm) that they successfully did. For example - The report Research Institute-48, made in April 1942, analyzed the causes of the defeat of the Soviet T-34 and KV-1 received to repair the company during the Battle of Moscow from October 9, 1941 to March 15, 1942. The number of cross-cutting lesions were distributed in size as follows:
150 mm - 3,
105 mm - 5,
88 mm - 8
75 mm - 13
45-50 mm - 42
37 mm - 21,
smallcaliber - 5,
Cumulative - 36,
of unknown size (mainly - piercing) - 31.
The appearance of the spring 42-year in the German army long-barreled 75-mm guns and captured 76,2 mm - much complicated the situation for Soviet tank.

For the experience. Do not forget that Soldiers get decorated when wounded. So maybe every 1 hour in the mission 60 points more experience. Only an example.

I understand you. I'll ask the team what they think about it

The question of me that you did not understand. In the RWG normally after a tank got destroyed you always have surviving crew members. I would change that that also no crew member is surviving a total hit. It seems to me that there are always survivors.

Survival is determined by the desk. If you put 0 - survivors never will be. I will ask team, is it possible to do so how you suggest

Hm, you do not want to upgrade the general unit. The problem is.

General - this is just a decoration for the missions:) In our mod you can use the telescope for larger view:)
We try to make every type of infantry weapon was unique and displayed reality - sub-machine guns are only effective in close combat. Rifle - in close combat is bad due to its rate of fire. Well, etc.

Can you please give me later when 2.0 is ready a DIRECT link to the Download because I can not read any russian word.

Of course! All the necessary links to our release version and a description of our mod you get in English in a special theme which I'm create

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

I agree with you not to make it possible getting experience for units because they are shooting at something or somebody.
- Time in batlle and wounded should be the reason to get experience points. No Multiplayer would try that hard way on shooting on his own men to get more experience points. Takes too long and you need to heal them all the time.
- But by the way. Wounded - One thing disturbed me over all the years from the beginning with Sudden Strike Forever etc.
In the RWG Infanterists having more living points like in other mods. Thats not a problem. BUT nobody came on the idea in the past that Infanterists which are heavy wounded so having from for example 2000 livingpoints only 250 left that for example a soldier that has only 250 or less points should have a maybe a 20 times LONGER healing time to be healthy again and ready for battle again. So maybe from 2000 to 1000 points you can take the normal healing time. But then in steps of 500 points down longer and longer time to heal a soldier. So for that it would also be very important to have medic tents and medic hospital houses. Even a new Red Cross Medic type unarmed male and female would be interesting. Sorry my fantasy is going through with me. Even Civil Refugees with baggage, females with baby carriage and babies holding in the arms, hand carts pulled by civilists and when I am right you have already involved the horse carriage. Only a civil version would be nice. With loadings like furniture and able to take 1 to 3 persons on it.
Examples: You can switch by arrows and look at 9 pictures up in the right corner of the pictures. The first 7 show you what I mean.
http://www.welt.de/bildergalerien/polit ... ussen.html

The last of your Screenshots is showing a german mission from the RWG 1.9 right? I could not understand the orders in the mission and after maybe 2 hours the mission was shown as lost. I do not know. But I can remember that I wanted to use the Henschel Destroyer planes but I could not fly away from the airport. Is it a bug?

[combo]

Hi Combo

Hi, Boli!

I agree with you not to make it possible getting experience for units because they are shooting at something or somebody.
- Time in batlle and wounded should be the reason to get experience points. No Multiplayer would try that hard way on shooting on his own men to get more experience points. Takes too long and you need to heal them all the time.

My English is not very good, so I'm confused. What you had in mind. Do you agree with our arguments, or still not?
And another interesting thing - the unit does not get the experience of what affects the enemy. He gets the experience of what goes on the ground - that is, missed at the enemy. This is a very funny thing.

BUT nobody came on the idea in the past that Infanterists which are heavy wounded so having from for example 2000 livingpoints only 250 left that for example a soldier that has only 250 or less points should have a maybe a 20 times LONGER healing time to be healthy again and ready for battle again. So maybe from 2000 to 1000 points you can take the normal healing time. But then in steps of 500 points down longer and longer time to heal a soldier.

Unfortunately, the engine will not allow it. Treatment of the infantry is very problematic issue. As far as I know, in homes and cars, they are automatically treated very quickly. I still ask my friends.

So for that it would also be very important to have medic tents and medic hospital houses.

These homes have a very long time - since the release of the game. However they are not very beautiful

Even a new Red Cross Medic type unarmed male and female would be interesting.

We are thinking about unarmed doctor in comon. Also we will have the Soviet nurses (look screen)

Sorry my fantasy is going through with me. Even Civil Refugees with baggage, females with baby carriage and babies holding in the arms, hand carts pulled by civilists and when I am right you have already involved the horse carriage. Only a civil version would be nice. With loadings like furniture and able to take 1 to 3 persons on it.

I also would like to see more variety of civilian in the game. But they are so far no one to draw. Although some of you listed, we already have - in the screenshot you can see just one of the two types of civilian carts. The screenshot shows a fragment of the mission "Holland" - German Stuck's attack the Dutch refugees and soldiers, retreating to the west. Also come under attack French military, following on to meet the enemy and fights.
Generally, in the RVG is paid great attention to the civil and common units, that make the mission more natural, making them more realistic.

The last of your Screenshots is showing a german mission from the RWG 1.9 right?

Yes, you're right. This is a screenshot of the mission "The Line Margarita", the author - Hetzer_B. It is planned for our release?of course in English.

I could not understand the orders in the mission and after maybe 2 hours the mission was shown as lost. I do not know.

Why do not you play in the English version? Hetzer also laid out eight missions in the English language for RWG 1.92. I'll post them again. Enjoy!

But I can remember that I wanted to use the Henschel Destroyer planes but I could not fly away from the airport. Is it a bug?

It's not a bug. So the author wanted and therefore removed from the aircraft take-off point. Therefore, these Henschel are on the ground as a backdrop.

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

My English is not very good, so I'm confused. What you had in mind. Do you agree with our arguments, or still not?
And another interesting thing - the unit does not get the experience of what affects the enemy. He gets the experience of what goes on the ground - that is, missed at the enemy. This is a very funny thing.

Let me explain. You said in the past, that you do not agree that experience grows for a unit BECAUSE it is shooting on another unit. For example in Sudden Strike Forever this was a normal thing. It was even in the Solution book for any missions and campaigns a tip of the gamemakers. You took for example all your officers let the go close to a tank take one or two supply trucks beside and let the officers shot on the tank so that they get 1000 so the full experience points after about 5 minutes.
So like that I agree with your arguements that I also do not like to have it that way.
But like I said. When units get wounded or damaged through battle action I think it is ok giving units some points (maybe 50). You are in fact right when you say: Why should a unit get experience points because it got wounded? The only reason for me could be that you have to find another way giving your units experience because you do not play one mission over weeks or month like it would be in a real war. Another way like I said would only be that one to give units every hour more and more points. And very important. More and more points should mean that units should shot better. When there would be no effect of it it is senseless. So of course a tank unit of 1000 points should hit other tanks easier than a tank with 0 points.
Another thing is important to you when you bring out new missions. In the german wehrmacht every tank crew that was driving a tiger or other heavy tank was driving tank II, III and VI over years before coming to the honor of driving such heavy tanks. That means in fact that all tankdrivers of heavy tanks were the elite of the elite. So that means that it is normally not right to put heavy tanks on the map and the drivers have 0 points. I guess it was a bit the same with Stalintank drivers.

We are thinking about unarmed doctor in comon. Also we will have the Soviet nurses (look screen)

Hehe, but these exemplares are still shooting!

Hm, so the Henschel planes are only "decoration". Thats sad. I had really needed it against that high pressure of russian attacks. Would be better to make them able to fly but the pilots first need to come and maybe you need to bring them through enemy lines.

I am really tensly like a bow for the new RWG!!

[combo]

Hi, Boli! 
I apologize for not having written long time.

Let me explain...

Wow... What a long text )) I hope that has not lost all sense and understood correctly. I'm kidding
Yep, getting experience is a very delicate moment. I also think that the injury units should receive the experience. But very small, so as not to become a veteran in just one mission.
We'll see what can do

And very important. More and more points should mean that units should shot better.

Of course. Is it that in our mod

Hehe, but these exemplares are still shooting!  

Because she is combat unit! Unarmed will be common medic

Hm, so the Henschel planes are only "decoration". Thats sad. I had really needed it against that high pressure of russian attacks. Would be better to make them able to fly but the pilots first need to come and maybe you need to bring them through enemy lines. 

Hmm... I asked autor of this mission May be he let's do it available.

I am really tensly like a bow for the new RWG!!

I'm too. We are doing a very long time the next version. The main reason for this - a large volume of changes and a small number of "employees".  but I hope that everyone will be very pleased with the final result. I myself am looking forward to the release

Some new pictures...

1. The Italian convoy stopped suddenly - the old bridge collapsed under one of trucks ... Some of the soldiers got out of the truck, anti-aircraft gunners took their positions, repairmen began rebuilding the bridge.



2. For Fatherland! (The German infantry in overcoats)



3. British tankers have not time to fire back ... Battery 90-mm anti-aircraft guns changed its location.


These and many other goodies, as well as the latest news of modding RWG (and another mods), you can find on our BLOG - http://realwargame.ru/blog/ (so far on Russian).

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

no Problem. It is ok. Main thing is, that the project don`t dies. I do not know when you want to bring it out.
But I played some Missions now and during playing it I found some another points that need to be viewed on.
- Machineguns 42 can not be moved away in any kind. So when enemy breaks in it is lost. I would make it like in RWM Mod that you have an unit "machingun-team". So two men walking along. One is carrying the Mg the other the ammunition. And when you make static mgs they should be able to load into a truck. Maybe even into a car. A car has three seats for passengers so why not also able to carry amo boxes. The same for APC`s. Because a machinegun or amobox is not sooo big. The same need to be done for mortars. Put two men at it and make them movable. But the bigger 120 mm should be movable only slowly by hand. Another possibility for movable mg`s and mortars is shown I guess it was Hidden Stroke II. There the static mg`s and mortars are also used by two men AND they are possible to load in AND they could be moved away slowly by foot. So when you put both possibilities in of RWM Mod and Hidden Stroke II you have all you want.
- I hope you will put in more Objects (vehicle wrecks, big cliffs etc.),houses and so on. You know I want to play the RWG-Original but I must say the competition Mod of RWG, RWG 2.99 has more of it. Specially the most mods ignored to fill up the winter sheme and threated it very stepmotherly. A high creativity has to come out of more possibilities.
- There is one earthhill bunker in the winter sheme that is not able to be used by infantry.

Earthbunker.jpg (6.16 KiB) 14966 mal betrachtet

Please even check, I guess there were some houses with the same problem. Very important. Foxholes, trenches and dug in positions for Antitankguns or even tanks. camouflage coatings with camouflage skills. I often like to use Foxholes just for reconnaisance activities and not for fighting, specially a bit in front of trenchlines.
- fighter plane Mg`s seem to me a bit too powerless against unarmored units like trucks etc. Crews of truck should be able to shot out. Fighter planes with 30mm guns should be able to destroy unarmored units like trucks.
- I hardly miss armored supply units like they are in Liberation Mod.
- Every unit should be able to lay down when under fire.
- Snipers should not destroy unoarmored vehicles but shot out the crews.
- Artillery can destroy tanks, bombs don`t.
- Very important for defence missions. The tank mines are a shadow of themselfes. They harm nearly no effect to enemy tanks. Look for example to Liberation Mod. Othersides I like the effectiveness of dynamite loads in RWG.

[Boli]

Hi Combo,

please check and balance out the possibility of infantryunits which are able to drive any vehicle.

On german side you only have Officers, normal drivers and SS Officers that can drive vehicles.

Screenshot - 26.03.2012 , 13_42_44.png (15.32 KiB) 14822 mal betrachtet

On russian side you have much more possibilities to refill killed drivers:

Screenshot - 26.03.2012 , 13_40_46.png (17.17 KiB) 14822 mal betrachtet

So please check that for all nations and my opinion is. Take out any militiamen and maybe the seaunits because they are absolute no drivers for tanks. Maybe for trucks yes. So change it that way that all officers can drive and all Special forces like NKVD, SS, US Rangers etc..
I guess that would be enough to regulate.

[combo]

Hi, Boli!

Once again I apologize for the long absence. Time - the most expensive resource.

Main thing is, that the project don`t dies.

Of course the project alive. We are putting all efforts for his early release.

- Machineguns 42 can not be moved away in any kind. So when enemy breaks in it is lost. I would make it like in RWM Mod that you have an unit "machingun-team". So two men walking along. One is carrying the Mg the other the ammunition.

We also like these infantry-unit. We will try to make them appear in our mod.

And when you make static mgs they should be able to load into a truck.

All machine guns and mortars in our mod will move by infantry and they can be loaded into the truck.

Maybe even into a car. A car has three seats for passengers so why not also able to carry amo boxes.

But in most cars should not be placed barrels of fuel. But in the game they will be placed there, that will not look very good. But we again think about this option.

- I hope you will put in more Objects (vehicle wrecks, big cliffs etc.),houses and so on.

We work in this direction. The number of buildings and objects will be expanded.

- There is one earthhill bunker in the winter sheme that is not able to be used by infantry.

In our mod there is no such building.

Please even check, I guess there were some houses with the same problem. Very important. Foxholes, trenches and dug in positions for Antitankguns or even tanks.

I'm sorry, but I will not understand you.

- fighter plane Mg`s seem to me a bit too powerless against unarmored units like trucks etc. Crews of truck should be able to shot out. Fighter planes with 30mm guns should be able to destroy unarmored units like trucks.

Aviation substantially revised

- I hardly miss armored supply units like they are in Liberation Mod.

In this mod these units are not the features that were have in reality, so we were it's not so much.

- Every unit should be able to lay down when under fire.

Yes, we will try to do so.

- Snipers should not destroy unoarmored vehicles but shot out the crews.

Fixed

- Artillery can destroy tanks, bombs don`t.

Fixed

- Very important for defence missions. The tank mines are a shadow of themselfes. They harm nearly no effect to enemy tanks. Look for example to Liberation Mod. Othersides I like the effectiveness of dynamite loads in RWG.

In reality, anti-tank mines can to destroy except light tanks and armored vehicles. And then - the best of circumstances. The other tanks - the damaged undercarriage.

please check and balance out the possibility of infantryunits which are able to drive any vehicle. On german side you only have Officers, normal drivers and SS Officers that can drive vehicles.

Something done in this direction

Some new pics:

[2wk]

Ist der RWG2 jetzt irgendwo zum download?

[Vordus]

Any release date for RWG 2?